This is a raw, unedited transcript of the Dot Dot Dot Conversation, “The Dark Web & Cyber Justice.”
You can listen to the full recording here.
Laurie Segall 0:00
Well I need to give everyone in the audience a sense of Blackhat it is a fascinating hacker conference where you know you have to, I say hacker we have security researchers who come in from all around the world and they talk about security flaws and I have been going there I got I started going there I want to say, almost like seven or eight years ago, and you meet all sorts of folks and then there’s a hacker conference after that called DEF CON. And people have code names, and they don’t even call themselves by their real names, they generally don’t like the media and you always have to turn off your Wi Fi when you’re there because you’ll get hacked, it’s, it was probably one of the most fascinating experiences I’ve ever had, as, as a journalist, so you know. It is certainly a place that is really interesting and I think Chris is hopefully going to join, but. Oh, there he is. Chris, hello, you’re on mute. There you go. Hi. How are you doing, I think we can you, we can barely hear you. Can you turn up your volume of it. Hey, I think Chris might have a volume issue but in the meantime, my fix is that Tim, why don’t we start with you, you’re on the board and legal counsel for Innocent Lives Foundation, could you give us a little bit of insight. Introduce yourself.
Tim Maloney 1:30
Sure, absolutely. So, my name is Tim Maloney, I’m a business attorney in Scranton, Pennsylvania. My practice is mostly in in New York in Pennsylvania, and with Chris’s company Social Engineer, he’s been a client of mine for many years. and a few years ago he approached me saying, you know, he wanted to start a nonprofit to combat the exploitation of children online, which is a quite a, quite, quite a handful as you can imagine. That’s a very broad topic. But the more of that she was running into issues with his work and the work that he does. It became clear that we wanted to do something to try to at least put a dent in the amount of exploitation. That goes on we formed this nonprofit, a few years ago and it has really taken off . We have probably about 50 volunteers at this point, who work with us to identify online predators. So we work very closely with law enforcement, and identify these people using open source intelligence or Osen. And we’ve worked with the very successfully with the, the, the law enforcement various law enforcement agencies to identify these people who are trading in, You know, online exploitation of children so whether that’s child pornography or other kinds of exploitation though it. We tried to step in, where we can play. One of our main issues is that we go after the people who are trading in this. we don’t, we don’t latch on to a specific case, rather we look at the people who are trading at, and our theories that we can take those people down, then you know that saves a lot of people a lot of children a lot of heartache.
Laurie Segall 3:31
Yeah, and I definitely want to kind of dig into how you guys do that because it’s fascinating and I have watched Chris, and Chris hopefully your mic is working because I gotta say like I’ve watched Chris, do his work before and he does something, also called social engineering. He is, you know Chris is known as one of the world’s top human hackers and Chris I’m gonna have you explain what that means. I met Chris. At, I was just before he came out with telling everybody about Blackhat, which is this kind of infamous hacker conference and just to give you a sense of Chris like I remember going to this insider hacker party that was on like a certain floor and then it was like, and I remember meeting you there and you’re almost this celebrity in the hacker community, to some degree, like you had to go through like layers to get to this one place where Chris, the top world human hacker was. So I would love for you to introduce yourself, but can you start by telling us what is a human hacker and what is it that you do. Yeah, yeah, I hope, can you hear me better now. Yes, yes now.
Chris Hadnagy 4:37
Perfect, we fixed it. So I think the easiest way to explain that is, we, we, I’ve studied how people make decisions. So from a psychological and physiological perspective, in the hopes of understanding how we’ve been scammed and duped throughout the ages, with the idea of understanding how those decisions are made, we can build protection for ourselves from the things that are happening that we see everywhere right now but in order to really understand that. I have to be able to do it. So we were there’s a field called penetration testing or pen testing or adversarial simulation is what I call it now, they’ve mostly focused on computers. I focus on the human.
Laurie Segall 5:24
I think the bottom last term. Wait, Chris, are you back. I am back. I don’t know I feel like I feel like you’re trying to do like a live hacking demo or something. And we’re all on the other side of it I’m not 100% sure of your social engineering as right now.
Chris Hadnagy 5:40
I’m really not I don’t know what’s happening. I don’t know why everything is bad. Can you hear me still
Laurie Segall 5:57
Yes, yes, I hope, I know I hope you haven’t stolen like my credit card information and
I have not yet, not yet. I mean. So what part, I cut out on.
You were just explaining. Now human acting and and getting to a little bit of, you know, what what it was that you did.
Chris Hadnagy 6:07
Okay, so I’m not sure that you did I get through like understanding the psychology of decision making and things like that.
Laurie Segall 6:13
Yeah, you were just getting that right yes.
Chris Hadnagy 6:15
So, so the the end of what I was saying was the focus is trying to really protect people but it’s it I always compare it to something like learning how to box or, or, or use martial arts is that you would hope that the person that is teaching you, has no malicious intent that they’re there to try to teach you how to use these things for exercise help defend yourself, but they still need to know how to do all the very same things that a bad guy would do and that’s us, is understanding how these malicious scammers or con artist or malicious social engineers do these things, helps us to build defenses. So, the innocent people can learn how to protect themselves from these type of attacks and defend against them,
Laurie Segall 7:00
and then Anna you are joining us. You’re the co founder at Uncovered and head of product can you give us a little intro and tell us about yourself,
Anna Eaglin 7:09
yeah definitely awesome to be here and Chris and Tim I’m just honored to be on the stage with you what you do is so incredible. So, yes yeah so so I’m Anna Eaglin, a little bit about me so again I’m co founder head of product and Uncovered. Basically I spent my entire career in technologies specifically designed and focused on building technology in a really human centered way so I focus on helping startups, you know, bring products to market to find product strategy. I you know I’ve done that for a lot of years and mostly in kind of the B2B space but for me, what I really wanted to do was take these products skills I had, and you know really tie them together with my, my interest in the true crime community and the true crime content. You know I have a lifelong obviously fascination as as many of you do, with, with this type of content, you know, as a child of the 90s and a child of unsolved mysteries and stranger danger, you know, it’s something that is always captivated me. But I’ve also seen the the transformational power of what really intentionally designed technology can do and so you know that’s what we’re trying to do with uncovered
Laurie Segall 8:13
right and we’ll get. We’ll get into that a little bit but I want to just start, Chris, I’d love to start maybe with you and going back to 2015. And I think this is when I called you up because we’ve known each other for so many years, you’ve been kind of my go to resident hacker for good. And I remember I was at CNN at the time and for folks in the audience I was a senior technology correspondent at CNN for over a decade. And before starting, Dot Dot Dot Media. And so, you know, I remember, Chris calling you up in 2015 and asking you to come into CNN offices to talk about revenge porn. I was so nervous. By the way, for folks who don’t know revenge porn is a horrific type of harassment. You know where we can kind of get into it but it often happens to women where their photos are released without their consent on the internet, often naked photos, it’s, it’s horrible and it was a huge problem people were not talking about it enough tech companies weren’t doing enough, law enforcement wasn’t doing enough to get on top of this. And I remember sitting we were in Don Lemon studio, where we were shooting this I looked on he lent us his studio to shoot our revenge porn shoot. And I will never forget you, opening up your laptop and you showed me something to this day, I don’t even think I can unsee it, can you explain what happened that day, and how it eventually led to you doing, you know, and how, because I think there’s so many pieces that led to you doing what you’re doing with Innocent Lives but can we start, I would just love to start with that day, tell me what what we saw, and again to the audience trigger warning.
Chris Hadnagy 9:57
It is it is a trigger warning and it’s, it was it was an amazing day for this because we you had asked, how easy is it for people to find revenge porn like on the dark web. And we opened up the browser we connected to the dark web, and we just did a few little quick searches, and within a few minutes we were on a site that hosted, not just revenge porn but revenge porn of minors. It was, it was the site that the these people were, were gaining access to these young teenage girls accounts, and then exploiting them or what now we call sexploitation into giving more graphic photos and videos over and this guy was selling them, he was selling them in packs of like what he was calling porn packs and yeah I’m still with you I can see that like if I close my eyes, I can still see that site, because there’s, I don’t know if we ever talked about this Laurie but there’s a, there’s a silver lining to this that site was taken down. We assisted and that sites gone. That guy’s in prison. Wow. Yeah, the guy who ran is running that site is in prison now. Wow, that very sight that you and I saw that day, and that that did have a massive effect because when, when you called me about revenge porn because I remember, I posted some information online about how women that were taking consensual nude selfies that they’re on their iPhones and they had all this GPS data in the background and nobody was covering it you were willing to talk about these things you were willing to step up and do something that most reporters were like, Nah, I don’t want to talk about that. So, when you invited me in and said, but we really want to focus on how serious revenge porn is. I never thought about it being with minors, it was it was all these women that had reached out to us saying, Can you help me, my ex husband or my boyfriend posted these pictures and I’m humiliated and how can you help me take this off and it was overwhelming. The response.
Laurie Segall 12:02
Yeah, I mean I can’t, I can’t even imagine right and so after that right like the revenge porn piece came out right I remember this came out on CNN it was talking to him for a long time and, and, because I think this was such a problem and people really started talking about it so for you, you know what happened next, because this was 2015 You didn’t start Innocent Lives Foundation until I believe it was 2017 So, you know, how, how did you know this, you know, take me through what happened and you know and why you decided to launch Innocent Lives.
Chris Hadnagy 12:37
Sure. So, what after that piece came out I did not expect the next thing to happen which was the amount of people that reached out to me because of being on CNN and begging for help. And it was heartbreaking because
Laurie Segall 2:50
there was a saying like what kind of things are these people’s things
Chris Hadnagy 12:54
that they’re they today sent photos to a guy and then they broke up and now this guy was releasing them online and their friends and family were seeing their nude photos and they were being humiliated and they felt violated and it and there was no loss at the time, you and I remember talking about this, there was nothing that said it’s illegal, so these guys can do it on not even on the dark web, they can do it on the open web, and there were sites that were house hosting all of these pictures. Yeah, it was It was horrific and the more that women would call her email and ask for help and the more sites that I found it was like the more shocking, this, this became a we tried, we tried our hardest to help as many as we could to get those sites taken down to get the pictures removed to help them with putting them in touch with, with legal counsel throughout the states. I know you were a big advocate for that we really tried, and then eventually, and I won’t take any credit for this because I think it was a number of people but eventually we started seeing legislation come into play where revenge porn was made illegal in many states where it became an actual offense of criminal offense to post people’s nude pictures without their consent. And that helped a ton, but it was, it was in these cases that we started to find more and more young people more and more teenagers and preteens and, and then it was this one job that I had it was part of my company, and we found a guy who was making his own child pornography and I don’t even want to go into details. It was horrific. He was creating and filming his own molestation of children, and he was trading it with other people on his work computer. And it was that, combined with all of these other things that I said I have to do something I have to start an organization that does something. And then, you know Tim told the story I went to him and I said Tim I, I had this ridiculous idea, and I don’t want to go to prison. Can you tell me how we do this and not go to prison because dealing with the subject matter was dealing with illegal material right away.
Laurie Segall 15:05
Right, right, and then you have all these hacker buddies because you hang out and have community like you are very connected and people get paid a lot of money to do what you do at big companies, right, but, you know, they don’t get paid a lot of money to go look at the dark web and try to find answers.
Chris Hadnagy 15:24
No, we have 50 volunteers that literally take their time out of their work to come and help us for nothing, they don’t get anything. They do it for free.
Laurie Segall 15:35
And I want to I want to do more than that but and I want to I want to go to you and talk about because you can hear how personal this is right for Chris and Tim and and I what I thought was so fascinating about Uncovered, even beyond the fact that I told you I love law and order I’m a true crime junkie right. It just seems like there’s so much behind why you decided to start this platform so if you could explain exactly what this platform is to folks, I think that would be helpful. And then also, I think what would also be really helpful if you don’t mind getting into it seems like it was really personal to you because you talk about, you know, this happening and I know you know this having to do with Molly so if you don’t mind going into what happened with her, and how, you know, this was a motivation to you.
Anna Eaglin 16:21
Yeah, definitely. So, um, yeah. Well yeah, for me, yeah it is pretty personal. So, when I was in college. In 2004, my cousin, Molly Tiller went missing, she went missing here in Indianapolis, it’s actually still a cold case it’s, it’s been unsolved. You know, as we have a pretty strong understanding of what we think happened and who we think did it, but actually kind of tying those pieces together is has been really challenging but, You know, going through that experience, you know, I’m in a big Italian family right, so I have a lot of cousins, kind of, kind of everywhere. But you know, it’s the kind of family where somebody, somebody needs help or somebody calls you, you know, you take care of them. And so I, you know, for me, you know, I didn’t know what to do when that happened I didn’t know what to offer you know my, my sister worked in local news and she was really helpful with getting things out in the media, you know, my cousin became our family advocate she would work with the police, you know, she helped get legislation passed in Molly’s name and so everyone kind of had something that they could do but, you know, I drove around my college town with a flyer on the back of my car they didn’t really know what else to do, I didn’t feel like I had the skills to really offer, you know, and as a person who was really interested in true crime and has, you know, is a consumer of true crime, that’s always really stuck with me as a consumer to understand that, you know that these are real stories and these are real people and you know that’s something I’ve never ever really been able to let go. So when one of our co founders Jim approached me in 2019 You know, he said you know I have this idea I think that we can take a lot of this tech, you know, these, these skills that we have and what we could do and I think we could apply it to this to to private to do something in this space. I was like, yes, like, let’s do it I couldn’t think about anything else I literally couldn’t sleep that night I was so excited about this idea. And so, you know, so for us, I think we’re so motivated to, you know, take people who are really interested in true crime because, you know, as, as the clearance rate of cases drops the people like true crime content absolutely explodes and these things are moving in opposite directions. And so if there’s a way. Our goal is to take people who have an interest in true crime and move that interest into advocacy, you know, We did a survey of 500 people who were interested in true crime, and we asked, you know, what would it take for you to get involved in a case, what would it take for you to advocate on behalf of the case. And Number one of course is knowing the person who went missing. I mean, that makes a lot of sense. If someone in your family is something happens to them, you want to do something about it. Number two was kind of geographically being close to that person if someone has disappeared from your town or close to you, you want to help you want to get involved because you kind of understand that case in a way that a lot of people don’t. But number three was just being told what to do, people, people want to help but they just don’t know how. So our goal is to really take these cases, bring this information forward and help people understand where they can actually make a difference,
Laurie Segall 19:20
And that’s what the platform is right if you’ve visited the site, it just, there’s all sorts of things you can do, can you just give us an example of some of the things people can help out with just to help people visualize Yeah,
Anna Eaglin 19:30
Most definitely most likely so we say that we build technology to solve cold cases and we do that in three ways. I mean, one way is our as our database of cases so if you go to our site, you click on cold cases, you’re gonna see a lot more information then you’re gonna see in most cold case databases. So we take cases we expand them out, we pull in timelines we pull in people were, you know, we’re, we’re putting 100 data points on a case that may have only had five to begin with. But also we’re calling out what are those actions. So for example, every case has something that it needs done some cases are, you know, do you know where someone would get a car like this have you ever seen a t shirt like this. Can you listen to this voicemail and what do you hear in this, there is no single database that ties together all of this information and that’s what we’re trying to do here, especially for the missing and murdered.
Laurie Segall 20:16
I can’t even imagine I know we just kind of, you know, you probably talk about Molly a lot as part of this but I just can’t even imagine what it would be like to have someone like a cousin completely disappear without any control, you know, you talk about driving around with just a flyer, I mean, I can’t even imagine the pain that that must have been for your family and your community. Out of curiosity is she on the site?
Anna Eaglin 20:44
Yeah, yeah, Molly is on the site, she’s actually, I think she was, she was the first case we got on the site so for me that was really important because again I, I never really, I’ve never really felt like I had a lot to offer that case and to offer her and so for her to be our first site was, it was, it, it was not really good. Yeah,
Laurie Segall 21:04
Yeah. So Chris and Tim like, tell me what it is, when we go to NSL live like, you know, so this is, you guys have all these volunteers and I think you guys have all these like interesting security, security guys were donating their time to helping search for child predators online. Like even saying that out loud seems terrifying. You know, so, can you give us an idea of like, what does that look like, you know what, what exactly does that look like What is the craziest thing that you guys have uncovered.
Chris Hadnagy 21:40
Yeah. So I think it’s important, before I even answer that just to talk about these 50 volunteers, real quick, and because we have such an intense onboarding process, like, one of the first things that I did after Tim gave me the thumbs up and said, Okay, let’s start this and he said I want to be on the board I want to support you and we started developing that one of the first things I realized was we need to have a wellness program. Anybody who’s going to even think or read or talk about this constantly. We need to make sure that they’re taken care of mentally, and we got our process for onboarding is not just the skills test and making sure we have the best of the best, but it’s also making sure we have people who are who are mentally stable enough to handle this horrific topic, because people may be passionate about it, but they may not be able to handle it. You know, and there’s a difference in that so we had to make sure when we got the best people, that those people were also able to deal with the things that we’re about to talk about because some of this is, is truly horrific. And I know you said it a million times but I think like there has to be a trigger warning before this because some of the things that’s happened over COVID times. I thought I could never see the bottom of the barrel, I thought, every time I go to the dark web. That’s it. There’s nothing that can be worse, you know like this happened and nothing can be worse than this, and then there’s something worse. And we found a forum on the dark web, that focuses on the rape and molestation of zero to six month old children. And there were 30,000 people on this forum, 30,000 people trading in this disgusting filth and asking for more and more brutal content. And it used to be and I say used to work going back I’m only here doing this for years, where there were websites devoted to selling and I won’t even mention the names but selling this drug that is an over the counter drug that keeps children compliant, they’re awake but they’re docile they can’t fight back, they’re like a zombie. And in the recent year, the request has been that the children aren’t given that drug that the their pain and suffering is actually visible. It’s gotten more brutal more horrific and it’s gotten younger, and the requests for it, The demand for is more, and I just say again, I can’t, I don’t know what else they can do to make it worse and I don’t want to challenge it, because every time I look at something more disgusting, but I gotta say that some of the worst stuff that I’ve ever encountered was having to deal with the case we just, it’s in our, it’s on our annual report we just closed the case and we turn this guy in he is on this forum and he offered to to rape his, his brand new infant, he does his wife just gave birth and he, he, he offered to do it on video for for his fellow guys and this form.
Laurie Segall 24:54
Now I know you have to, I mean, well first of all let me say like That’s horrific. So trigger warning to anyone in this room. Oh my god, I first of all, and I think I want to have a whole conversation on mental health as part of this, because I don’t know how you see that and you don’t unsee that and Chris I know you have a daughter so I want to get into that later like I don’t know how you go home and you separate yourself even as a journalist who covers a lot of stuff I find it hard to separate, and I am not, you know, in that all the time and knee deep like you guys so I would, you know, how you talk about something as horrific is as this man and you say you close the case so I know you to be really careful right about telling us how you did it, but can you dance around it if you will, like, what is it that you guys did that helped you do infiltrate these forums, do you know you’re, you’re a social engineer Chris So for folks who don’t know what that is like social engineering is a type of hacking but it’s kind of human hacking right so it’s where you’re getting people to do things maybe on the phone that they wouldn’t normally do, it’s a it’s a whole type of hacking that people don’t even really understand it’s hacking human beings. So can you explain exactly how you’re able, how you’re able in this specific situation to put this guy behind bars.
Chris Hadnagy 26:15
I can, and it’s it’s it’s a fascinating thought process because we didn’t use any of that. And And here’s where I think your desire to talk about mental health is good because one of the things we had to do was literally read every post that this person made every post so we get his username, and we have to read everything and we’re reading it for details. Does he have, you know, even though it’s in writing, does he have an accent does he use colloquialisms that tell us where he’s from in the world. Does he slip up and mentioned that he’s from a certain area. Does he talk about a hobby. Does he talk about a hospital, a location, anything that can give us one morsel, that says, This guy is here. So we need to start looking at this location, and fortunately for us, he did he leaked critical information about himself but he probably didn’t think he did, he probably thought he was sly. And we use that to dig deeper on the open web and see if we can connect these dots and now we got these dots here and we say okay, I know this about this guy and I know this about this guy. If I do searches on the web about these two things. Does anything come up, and you find one more so here and then you put that aside and these, these cases can take months upon months and that’s why our volunteers are just unbelievable in my mind because they can work these things, endlessly for hours a week, month after month after month just connecting these dots slowly. And eventually what we found was everything this guy’s home address, pictures of his business, his family everything about him. And we just took that and packaged it up and gave it to law enforcement, and that’s the most important part, we’re not vigilantes right we don’t go out him. I don’t take his information and put it online and say everyone this is a trial predator. This is a disgusting creature. No, because that’s mob mentality we took all of that with the proof of what he was asking for. And we package it up and we give it to law enforcement we say this is an easy arrest go get this guy, and they love us for that.
And I think I might be able to complement that a little bit, Chris because, as you can hear from just by Chris’s tone there how passionate is well multiply that by 50 or more, and you have all of our volunteers, and I kind of play the role of the guy who hits the brakes, because the Chris and all these volunteers are they’re very accomplished white hat, white hat hackers in the security industry, and they’re capable of finding information about anybody anywhere. I mean, Laurie, you made a joke earlier about whether he knows your, your credit card information yet. And that’s where we always have to be careful. We focus all of our information, all the information that we deal in is open source, is we put together this puzzle, so that what we ultimately do provide to law enforcement is something that they can use. If we were to compromise that in any way, if we if we took a shortcut and law enforcement couldn’t recreate what we did. It’s it’s useless. It’s an exercise in futility and that person wouldn’t be prosecuted or would be, or would get off, on you know some technicality. So we’re very, very careful about that with everything that we do, we don’t, we don’t even approach the line of, you know, we don’t, we don’t even think about approaching that line where we could compromise investigation,
Laurie SEgall 29:44
right and then I want to welcome Rachel, and you guys, please feel free to jump in whenever but Chris is not, you know, what does it feel like I mean take me to that feeling you have been searching for months you have been on the dark web and you described earlier, I don’t even want to say it out loud because it is so disturbing, you know what talking about seeing these incredibly disturbing images of, you know, of the violation of of infants online. Take me to the moment where you guys have followed these leads, where you have a first and a last name. How does that feel.
Chris Hadnagy 30:23
Yeah, so you know the first moments. It’s almost like you don’t believe it, you go okay wait this can’t, this can’t be real. Because we enter it thinking we’re gonna fail and it’s not because we’re negative it’s. These people have. There’s a form on the dark web that teaches that teaches pedophiles how to hide their information so they can’t be caught. Right. are our onboarding process intent and Tim Tim is right about our onboarding process is ridiculous, right i mean we do, we do full they have to sign an agreement to let us do a full criminal federal and financial background check. In addition, they have to go through a wellness session with Aaron, our, our therapists to make sure that they’re mentally stable, then they have to interview with our COO, and our coordinator of our identification team to make sure that they fit culturally into our team. And after all of that they have at least a 30 to 60 day period, where they’re just in helping us out, but they’re not doing anything hardcore like that. And after all of that, then they can be given cases that may be more and more difficult so if someone is trying to infiltrate us, they’re gonna have to get through multiple layers of human firewall.
Fortunately we’ve been, we’ve been very fortunate, and you know and we’ve had, we’ve had people get very close to like coming aboard and then we say, by the way, you can remain anonymous on our website. No one needs to know you work for us but if any law enforcement agent asks for our volunteer names, we give them over 100% and we’ve had people walk away. And we’re like, great, then walk away please because if you are not comfortable with law enforcement, knowing your name we don’t want you here, because we’re not in the Delaney group we’re not a hacker group. So anytime that is kind of the nice thing about all the skills of Chris and all of our volunteers, that they can do these deep but deep background checks. So, trying to get past them. It’s not like just getting past any run of the mill background check this is a these are people who are well versed in finding out information so you know so far we haven’t had an issue but we’re constantly vigilant about that and that’s our one of our number one concerns.
Laurie Segall 32:56
Wow. And, you know and everyone else please jump in because I know we have a lot of folks up here, and I haven’t gotten to in a while I mean, you have, how many cases do you guys have on on an Uncovered now.
Anna Eaglin 33:11
So we, we just did our 300 attempt at 400 and fifth 350 I think is what we submitted so now we there’s, I mean that’s what we have accepted so there’s it’s an interesting number to think about because we’ve submitted cases that are we’ve done cases that are dead ended. So we, we have that number and I believe that’s closer to 400 but we, we have 305 I think is the number that we have submitted to law enforcement, which means law enforcement has accepted that those cases. And I am just like, for years I mean when you and I first talked about higher left when I just launched it. And we I was happy that we had nine that year.
Laurie Segall 33:53
And now we’re talking about 305 Wow. That’s unbelievable and, and, and uh, how many and how many cases do you guys have and I know we have you guys had any leads and, you know what kind of progress have you guys made I know you’re kind of building out this database for folks. Yeah. Have you guys had any leads, what have you found.
Anna Eaglin 34:14
Yeah so, I mean one big piece of our kind of our solution that I didn’t really talk about we actually also have a community of members who are doing cold case work right now as well. Definitely yours is very intense Chris, I don’t think we’re anything quite like that but what what we have in our community is I think it sounds like a similar mold of people as people who are really interested in this kind of work so we have, you know we have people who, you know they consider themselves citizen detectives they already do this type of work we have people who are, we have people with DNA analysts backgrounds we have one of our members who’s really strong and Osen tools. And the other part of our communities. We also have family advocates. We have people who are advocating on behalf of their loved ones they’ve brought their loved ones case to our community to get our help working on it and they also because they want help, They want collaboration. So another piece of what we do is of course we were building our database right now we are at about 80 cases. This quarter, we’re really working hard on building out our infrastructure so we can scale that significantly. We’re really looking to start building more automation tools to kind of start scraping the web a bit more to kind of build up what we’ve got going on. And you know because because the third piece of what we want to do of course we’ve got our database, we’ve got our community but we want to start you know applying machine learning and AI to our database as well, so we can start seeing and making connections between cases that you know that people haven’t been able to make yet so we are, we’re, we’re very new, we’re just kind of getting off the ground but we have a very, you know, it’s, I would say I would kind of echo what Chris says like the dedication of the people in our community is just absolutely astonishing it’s people who are really, you know, I want to do something and I want to help like help me figure out how to do that.
Laurie Segall 36:01
I think curious and I know, I think we have a question from someone and I’m also curious about this too but I remember when when I was at, you know, when I was at CNN, there was nothing worse than the wrong tips on Reddit, right when you had a major case like I remember thought I was on the Boston bombing case right and I think someone put out the wrong name. They thought that they found it on Reddit or something and it was just, it was a disaster right so I’m curious, you know how you guys, ensure you know first of all, and how does long forcement feel about what it is that you guys do, and how do you guys make sure you’re getting the right tips, you know, what are you doing to make sure the right information is, is getting through. Yeah, I love. Oh I’m sorry go ahead. Oh sorry, no, no, you’re good. Thanks
Anna Eaglin 36:51
Chris. Yeah so, I mean that’s a great question. We get that question a lot and so number one I want to let you know that we work in publicly available information, and that’s really where we started this, we wanted to gather all of the publicly available information about these cold cases into one place. And so one thing we do there is we lean a lot on digital literacy to make sure that the sources we’re pulling information from are legitimate sources, we’re getting better and better at that. So that’s, that’s where we go first so we are not, you know, we’re not pulling Reddit threads, we’re not doxing people everybody who’s a member of our community we have a we have a we have a strong manifesto, we have a terms of what our what it means to be a part of our community, you know, we don’t dogs people, you know we don’t engage in any kind of, kind of like Chris said we don’t engage in vigilante behavior that’s not why we do what we do, but we make sure that all of our information is from, good, good solid reputable sources, and that, you know everyone is going about this and we believe citizen detective work can be done in a very ethical and considerate and collaborative way and that’s the kind of work that we want to do.
Laurie Segall 37:54
Chris, I think you wanted to jump in, but what would be your advice as someone who works very closely with law enforcement.
Chris Hadnagy 38:00
Yeah, I love what Anna said because it really mirrors, it’s like, it’s nice to meet other people who are having the same mentality. These vigilante groups aren’t. They’re not helping the problem, right. So, you think about, there’s all these groups even here on clubhouse I know there’s some on Facebook, there’s some where these guys they go out and they make believe their 13 year old girls and then they get this predator to meet them at a McDonald’s and then they videotaped him and they put that videotape online. The the chain of custody has been ruined. There’s no, there’s no legal proof of anything, even if those guys save all their chats, that there will be enough doubt in the evidence that person walks in addition, they have now educated the world on the process of catching a predator. So those vigilante groups think they’re doing something good. But something happened this year that was truly amazing. There was a vigilante group on Facebook that literally was going out and asking young people to help them catch predators. And this young 16 year old girl got involved in this, and then she slipped up bad AppSec and she gets stopped credit there started locating who she really was started talking about coming to visit her and she reached out to us scared and afraid and asking for help. So we tell people you law enforcement if you do it right, see what Tim said before is like we package this up because our goal is that this guy gets arrested, and for him to get arrested, we have to give them every step along the way and none of those steps can be illegal. If we do one thing above or outside the law, we just ruin the case.
Laurie Segall 39:42
And Chris, don’t stop with that story so what happened when she reached out.
Chris Hadnagy 39:47
Yeah, so we ended up meeting with her and meeting and talking to her, and trying to ask like, find out what was the motivation, like why did you do this, and we, Samantha and myself we spent a lot of time with her just chatting and talking and getting her in touch with the FBI, putting her in touch with them because at this point, like we don’t go out and make believe we’re 13 year old girls we don’t promise predator that we’re going to give them pictures. We just find the guys who have already done bad things so we put her in touch with federal law enforcement. We helped her get some help for herself and helped her get out of that group. And to clean up her social media, and then just we just got her the help that she needed so she can be safe. You know, and, and it’s it’s scary because they his her intent was good, right she wanted to help young people not get caught by these people who were trying to exploit them. But she’s 16/17 years old, like, they shouldn’t be doing this. And vigilantism doesn’t work.
Laurie Segall 40:52
Yeah, Ashlee. You’ve been up here for a while. Why don’t you introduce yourself and we’d love to hear from you.
Ashlee Fujawa 40:58
Yes. Thanks, Laurie. My name is Ashlee and I’m Head of Community with Uncovered and I first Chris that’s tremendous the work that you’re, that you’re doing, and the volunteers that you’re working with. I want to shout out our community that we have as well. There are many of them in the room tonight, which is great. We have people from all over the country who have these skills that are in anything from research to organization that as Anna mentioned is kind of doing this and doing this investigation and doing this research on their own because they followed a case they maybe saw a documentary or listened to a podcast and just really got connected to the story and they wanted to learn more, we’re providing that space for people to do that in a thoughtful way. And I mentioned our manifesto, but also access to resources and experts so we’ve partnered with the Freedom of Information coalition to provide them training and doing public records requests and opportunities to work with investigative journalists and attorneys, but also with Purdue University, you mentioned Laurie about connections with law enforcement. We’re able now to connect with people before their law enforcement to show them that here’s a different way to organize information to work with community, how we’re able to provide kind of a gateway of, here’s a way to organize a case and how you can pull in everything from maps and timelines and photos and work with a community who has an interest and move them just from consuming this information, but to advocate and use their own platform and their own agency, particularly for those cases that don’t get as much as media attention, and sit stagnant, There are over 200,000 cold cases of murdered and missing people. And that number rose by 5000 every year and as Anna mentioned the clearance rate is going down, but the consumption of this content is going up so being able to provide people a platform, a safe space, a place that’s devoid of you know people selling stuff on MLS or their vacation pictures, but actually talking about these cases in a thoughtful way and finding information and pulling in that publicly available info to paint a more cohesive picture of the victim and being victim focused, but then identifying those gaps in those timelines and then saying great, what do we else do we need, what else can we find this out there.
Laurie Segall 43:16
Yeah, I love that. I love that, what uncovered does is it looks at cases that people, you know, might not have looked at or the media didn’t cover, as well as it should have. I think that that seems like that seems incredibly important. So yeah,
Ashlee Fujawa 43:32
I think that’s wonderful. That’s one of the, that’s one of the crux of why we wanted to create Uncovered as well as because we know that they’re all those stories that people hear about, and we were all consumers in this space of true crime, but being able to elevate those stories of missing or murdered indigenous women, the trans community of so many people in the Black community there, these cases just don’t get talked about unless it’s an anniversary, so that’s only just once a year and there are family members and I mentioned, family members and family advocates who are just helped me get this in front of the media, get other people on it and utilizing your own social platform can go such a long way we truly believe in the power of collective impact.
Laurie Segall 44:09
Yeah, and I’m curious, because you talk about all these cases and you are in some of these really dark. You know, these dark forums, have you or your team ever been threatened or have you ever worried about your own safety.
Chris Hadnagy 44:26
Well that’s a, that’s a great question. So, one of the things that we did when we started this organization was we created very special technology called VDI virtual desktop environments, and all of our researchers do all of their work from these environments. So there is nothing tying anybody back, and their real identities to anything on online. So, they have, there has not been an incident. In those cases where we’ve had to worry about our safety now. Sadly, there was, there was a case where a reporter had found some information that contained my personal information, and he, he went public with it, and I asked him not too, but he thought the story was too good so he went public with it and he posted it online and I was very worried about my safety there because he actually talked about cases that we closed and things that we did, and included all my personal information including my home address with it, so. Yeah, but that’s the only time I felt unsafe, like I said we do all this anonymously and and and one of the things that is one of our founding principles is that we ask any law enforcement that when they make the arrest, that we’re not named in any of the paperwork. We don’t want the credit. We don’t ask for public praise. We just asked for them to tell us that the arrest is done, that’s it so we can count it as a closed case. We don’t want any credit for the work that we do, we just want to help them get people off the street.
I was just about to jump in with that Chris as well, that that is what has been one of our founding principles that we, as Chris said we don’t seek credit. In fact, we, the the goal of the material that we provide the law enforcement needs to be at a level where we’re not necessary, where we’re, we’re providing this this package to them and saying, Now you go do your job. Here’s all the information that we have we’re a resource for you. We’ll work with you, but the day that we get to the point where somebody from our organization has to testify or something like that would really hamper our ability to do the work that we do. So we’re always very conscientious of that. And similarly with our volunteers. We, they have an opportunity to say that they’re affiliated with the organization but not what they do or how they do it. Confidentiality is very important for maintaining the integrity of the investigations that we do.
Laurie Segall 46:58
I want to get to wellness I just, I want people in the room to understand like the craziness, like, has press I’ve followed you for, for so many years and I’ve interviewed you multiple times. I just like the craziness in the, the, of what you what it is that you do. I will never forget hearing, and I don’t even know, I mean I think I know this was legal, but you did this but the reporting of you with a fake baby reporting background calling an airline to try to get, like, to try to convince a woman to get you the plane information of a child predator, I mean, I, so it almost feels like we’re talking about a movie, right, but we’re not so I think the it’s funny because we talk about all these things in these broad terms, but if you were to just step into Chris’s life for one day. I just think everybody would just be shocked.
Tim Maloney 47:55
All my headaches come from. Right, I can only ambassadors, can you just explain really quick what I’m talking about to the root.
Chris Hadnagy 48:04
I do sympathize for Tim because it’ll be many times where I call him very late in the game and be like Hey Tim, I’m about to go break in this place and it’s fully armed. Is that okay, and he’s like, Wait, you’re there, why don’t you call me last week, I forgot. No, so I do that all the time and he’s like, any help. In this particular case, you’re talking about we were working very closely with an organization that was trying to track a person who was bringing young girls in from from China into America for sex slavery and massage parlors. And he was hiding himself very well, and they had an inkling that they knew who he was, and that they linked, who he was to a public Facebook profile but of course his Facebook didn’t have anything about that at all. Of course not. So, you know, it was just they they say we think this is our guy but we can’t locate him is using weird fake names and names that don’t come back to any government IDs or social security numbers, so we have started doing the Osen D open source intelligence locating him locating all of his social media, and we found this guy was talking about a trip that he was taking. So I did exactly what you said is we started calling every airline and you know what we showed what I played for you was that one recording where it worked but there was like 27 recordings before that where we called every airline and I played this this recording I had a crying, screaming baby in the background, which I found on YouTube, but I just went to YouTube and I typed in crying baby noises, and I downloaded a three hour clip of crying babies, which by the way is the most irritating thing you could ever listen to for three hours. And I played that in the background, and I put my phone on speakerphone and I called all these airlines and said I was the personal assistant for so and so and that he had a flight coming up, and I needed to get some information because I messed up and I’m at the doctor’s because my baby’s really sick and I’m a single dad and I played the whole sympathy card up so much, you know on the baby screaming and I’m turning around going, it’s okay it’s okay, you know I’m taking you into the middle that’s got to take care of this and I kept talking to the front baby and you know and I would find people that wanted to help me, And I would these agents will try their hardest to look up the name. Sorry sir, you must have booked it with a different airline I don’t see a flight here. And I did that until I found the right airline. And then when I finally got the right airline, I just needed to know, where did the flight originate where did it end, How many seats that did he have child seats with him, and I need the I need the confirmation codes and it was a very long call if you remember playing that but we got it we got it we got all his info, and we got all the confirmation numbers and then I was able to hand that off to law enforcement and say here’s where he’s flying in from here’s where he’s flying to. And here’s his confirmation numbers, and that was a great feeling when that happened,
Laurie Segall 51:09
So many people think when they hear the word hack, they can insist on a computer, but this is like social engineering right this is human hacking right being able to convince someone to do something, when you are literally the king of it in the hacking community you can for people listening you can literally convince people to do things that they never thought they would do and that’s kind of known for, I want to talk about wellness. We talked on mental health. You know, even for the folks that uncovered for folks Innocent Lives Foundation you guys are dealing with, like, really tough stuff all the time. You know I can joke about how I like true crime and 100 for you and whatnot, like, but you guys are really looking at some real real stuff all the time and, and one, one thing that really stuck with me having covered tech all these years is the story that as journalists we just keep covering over and over again which is, you know, moderators for big tech companies like Facebook, who are have to look at all. All this, all some of the bad stuff and have committed suicide because it is just too. It is just terrible and we don’t pay and some of the tech companies aren’t taking care of their people and I think, you know, you guys are looking at some really tough stuff so can you tell me, Erin, I know you’re welcome to the stage. First of all, thank you, but I know you handle wellness at Innocent Lives foundation. Yes, how do you deal with folks who are literally in the dark web, I mean, I, I just, I can’t even stop thinking about the work Chris showed me in a studio at CNN in 2015, and that was ages ago, scarring so how do you help people kind of mentally do this work.
Erin Maloney 52:52
Well, the beauty of most of our volunteers and as Chris said with our rigorous entering into our program. A lot of our volunteers are able to compartmentalize this, they find the time of their day, where they have the very few distractions, they are able to almost switch, literally, a mental play into a mental place. To do this, equip themselves for it, and then as they turn it off, they literally step out of that role. If they can’t do that, That’s actually where I start to intervene. The beauty of it is that I check in with them at minimum once a month, and so I checked the all the aspects of their lives. I asked them about all the relationships in their lives, their, their full time jobs and if I sense it other areas are being affected or relationships are being affected then we discuss maybe another plan. And it has a lot of facets to it. We have an entire education outreach team. In addition to people doing research, but we have a lot of other areas that we could say hey why don’t you take a break and step over to education and outreach, I think it’s, you know, I think it’s time to maybe take a little pause there and they’re able to do that and they’re able to take a break if they need to, or if there’s a major change in their lives, we say hey, how about you pause, and the doors still open for you to come back. So it is about being mentally prepared to do this type of work, but I do find a strength of our volunteers is that they already have that ability if they did not. I don’t think they could even do it. Yeah, I mean I, we do have a few law officers, in our pit or, you know, a research team, and they say they wish that there was a mental health, health component to the their jobs the whole time they were in it. It’s really invaluable.
And running the backend and one thing, Laurie to that because it’s one of the things that we make as part of ourule set, is that they must meet with Erin once a month, as they’re doing this. No it’s not, it’s not that hey if you feel you need it. This is a mandatory requirement to stay volunteering for us that you have to meet with her once a month, and that’s to keep them safe mentally but also to keep our organization safe.
Laurie Segall 55:04
How does this impact your relationship with your family Chris and particularly your daughter. I know you’ve always told me about your daughter. I just can’t imagine seeing what you see on a daily basis, and not taking that home with you.
Chris Hadnagy 55:18
So I think the hardest part for me. I’m saying this with a smile because I can see her face yelling at me, is, is to not become one of those dads that wants to like tie her, You know lock her to a radiator and just say you’re never allowed to leave the house, you know, because I’ve seen all these things and I know there’s so many bad people and to be like, you’re never allowed to go anywhere. And that’s a that’s a struggle for me but one of the things that I’ve found through having a therapist is being able to work on the compartments for this and to find that time like we have a ritual every night. I spend at minimum 30 minutes with Maya. And I sit in her room with her in her bed and she shows me photos on our phone and we laugh at jokes or we just talk. That’s all we do, we’re not watching TV, why don’t we just talk. And this has been going on now for years and she’s 17 and we still enough, I’m not here. She’s traveling or I’m traveling, we get on the phone and we do it. And it’s that ritual that keeps my brain in that safe space where I know that this is, this is my safe space so she’s not part of that world, she’s not involved in that world that that’s where I can come back to normalcy and forget all of that crap that we see out there and just, this is my this is my family time.
Laurie Segall 56:39
We also have someone new to this stage and we only have a couple minutes so welcome. Thank you do want to introduce yourself and and ask to ask a question.
Sure. My name is Janina, I am a third year law student, but this is more like my fourth career. And I am, I’m very this is a subject very close to my heart because you know I’m a rape survivor, and, you know, a lot of people don’t understand is the grooming. You know I when I talk to people, a lot of them don’t understand that minors are groomed for a long time and that’s part of why this is so insidious as far as like the web is concerned. And it was funny. I was in a group the other night was just a regular Bitcoin group. And what they were talking about and they seem very upset about it is that there’s gonna have that I guess there’s some platforms that sell Bitcoin, and now what they’re trying to do is have laws restricting the sharing of any images that involve minors. So, as far as like stock photos and things like that, like, anything that involves a minor or could lead somebody to I guess maybe start grooming someone because they think a minor is attached to that photo, that person will have access will actually, um, the, the, the minor meaning the under age person, actually, like all of their photos, like all of their photos, they’ll have access to the phone system will have access to it so that they can like kind of create a security blog, within that, and people are really upset about this, you know I guess they felt like it was an infringement on, like, just their freedoms for privacy but I just felt like why are we even doing this I mean, first of all, I don’t know why minors should be even buying Bitcoin, um, like, from what I said I thought you had to be able to in any way but then when I was in this room, I guess, you know, like I just was like, you know, this shouldn’t be a discussion and there shouldn’t be any kind of like pushback on this because like, I don’t think, I don’t think minors really should be on the internet, anyway. Um, as far as having an I know their securities I know there’s like parental controls and I get it, it’s very invasive social media invades every part of our lives, but I just couldn’t believe it was a whole group of like 50 people that were arguing this.
Sorry Chris, do you I mean, I’m also curious, first of all thank you for coming up and sharing this and I also think, super important and and I’m, you know, I also know Bitcoin too when it comes to the dark web has also changed the game on so much of this and also, you know child pornography and all this kind of stuff. So Chris, do you want to weigh in.
Tim Maloney 59:54
Yeah, I have a couple thoughts first of all I’d like to say I’m so sorry that you had to be a survivor of something as horrific as rape. And thank you for being bold enough to openly talk about it and through that helps others who are suffering. I don’t know the exact law that you’re talking about, but here, here’s a few things that I was thinking about when you when you started. First I know there’s a number of apps that allow for cash apps that allow for, for cryptocurrency to be purchased. So Bitcoin itself is a non centralized form of currency so there’s no way that Bitcoin in itself can could do what, what you were saying but if there’s an app that allows for the purchase and use of Bitcoin, and now they’re saying well if you want to use Bitcoin to do this transaction. And you’re a miner we have access to all of this. The gist of what I that they were saying, yeah that scares me a little and I’ll tell you why, from a technological standpoint, we look at the last two years and this country’s. I won’t speak globally but let’s just talk about America for a second. Everything has been breached, everything your healthcare, your cell phone, your, the military, the government, everything has been hacked by by Russia, China, or, or another hacktivist group. And now you’re saying that some cell phone company could potentially have access to my daughter’s device, which means if they get breached, then her photos if there are inappropriate photos of her on that phone could end up in the hands of the attackers that scares the living daylights out of me. But I’ll tell you what scares me more is in the last 12 months, every grooming case that we have seen hasn’t come from something like this it’s come from these sites that are set up where kids can go and play games together they can watch movies together, we found predators on homework sites. So when COVID first happened, there was a bunch of great teachers, amazing teachers that set up all these sites to help kids that were struggling because they didn’t have good teachers at their schools to help kids with math and science and biology to help answer their questions, and we found predators on these sites trolling for children. Anywhere that children are there are predators, so forget the apps forget the cell phone companies parents need to be involved in their kids lives. They need to be talking to them watching them monitoring them. That’s the only thing that’s going to keep our kids safe from these people. Yeah,
Laurie Segall 1:02:35
I will say Chris and record. There’s, you’ve talked to me a little bit about and we’ve got to wrap soon because I know I don’t want I want to be respectful of everyone’s time you’ve talked a lot about Instagram and hashtags and how parents don’t even realize that they are putting their children at risk when they’re posting. As someone who has spent all this time in these dark web forms, what is the thing that you think we are not talking about that parents need to know about that everybody in this room should know about.
Chris Hadnagy 1:03:05
Yeah, parents often say, but I don’t know enough about the internet so I can’t help my kids, how do I monitor my children. Okay so great, maybe you’re not, you’re not as technical as your kids you know what I do this for a living, and I’m not as technical as my 17 year old so I can hit it. I think me coming in the clubhouse prove that, okay, what they need to realize is that the world is not as innocent as you are so when you take a picture of your one year old, and you put hashtag bathtime because you think Grandma’s gonna find that cute, there is some predator out there who was trolling Instagram for hashtag bathtime, and he’s gonna take a screenshot of your naked kid, and put that in some tradable pack on on the internet. So we and I hate to have to tell parents to do this, but we have to start thinking critically about our social media usage so you want to take pictures of your kid and put it on Instagram great lock your social media down so the only people that can see their grandma, grandpa, aunts and uncles. That’s it, do not put it on an open Facebook open Instagram page where everyone has access to it, because there are bad people out there that will use your innocent photos to do horrific things and we see it every day. So, a little critical thinking a little bit come to the innocentlivesfoundation.org We have guides on there how to monitor an Android phone, how to monitor an iphone how to talk to your kids about sexploitation, how to have a conversation that’s age appropriate about these horrific topics, there’s so much information, and I’m sure some of the other folks here in their organizations have similar things, where parents can get help, to, to be with their kids to combat this,
and Laurie, if I could just add briefly at one other thing that parents need to understand is, with the facial recognition that is in like almost every single app, what they need to communicate to their kids is anytime you take a picture, data is being saved. So much so that when you go certain law firms, when you have an interview, they will actually use the software to see what you’ve done for the last 10 years, to see if any kind of fraud and things like that pop up. So anything that you don’t want other people to know about. As a parent you should say, do you want other people to know about that, every time you snap a picture you should think about that.
Laurie Segall 1:05:36
And I want to I want to give a word to the folks that Uncovered to you guys as we kind of in this session, what do you guys looking for in a citizen detective, and where do you hope this platform, goes, goes from here.
Anna Eaglin 1:05:54
Yeah, that’s a great question. So, I mean, we believe anyone can be a citizen detective we’ve met so many people who, you know, tell us they have no skills, but as Ashley always says, you know, everyone can’t do everything, but everyone can do something and we believe that if you’re the kind of person who is interested in cold cases interested in learning more about what it means to be an ethical citizen detective. We want everyone to check out uncover calm. Our community is in beta right now but we’ve got a waitlist going If this sounds interesting to you if you want to learn more, join our waitlist. Take a look at our cases and submit a case, you know, right now we’re doing things pretty manually we’re still a tech startup. So if you see a case on there that you’re passionate about that you want us to tackle or you want to tackle it with us, definitely let us know. Yeah, I’d
Ashlee Fujawa 1:06:40
Also say, as Anna mentioned come to our site learn more about what we’re doing. And if this is something that you’re interested in as far as just, I listened to podcasts, I watched documentaries, calm and learn more about what you could do with these cases that still need answers and these families who still need help, use your social capital and you know your agency and your own platform to even share these stories with people because just keeping them in the public eye is huge as well.
Laurie Segall 1:07:08
Wonderful. Chris, I was going to end by asking, since you know me, How would you social engineer me, but I always ask you that question. I think everyone here should know so I feel like everyone should know about social engineering and kind of what you do but, so maybe well, what would you do to social engineer me right now.
Chris Hadnagy 1:07:26
Oh man, I don’t know you know you are one of the best interviewers and I’m not just saying that because I’m here you can ask my team I say this about you all the time and interviewing is a form of social engineering because you get people to answer questions and you draw information out in such a way and that is what we call elicitation. And that’s what I would use with a, with a reporter who’s you know you, you, you’re very unique, so I don’t know what I would do and so basically to
Laurie Segall 1:07:54
The audience he would feed my ego and then go in front until I was working on it. Okay, but we’ve got it and then I want to be really respectful of everyone’s time, But you guys this has been so fascinating and I’m so impressed with all the work you guys are doing. You know, it’s nice to meet new people and, and Chris it’s great to chat with you and Tim, you too and Anna Ashlee, Erin, Rachel everyone thank you so much. And again, we’re done that that media join our club. We have another episode next week, next Tuesday at 6pm and I’m super excited about this one as well. We’re talking to some of the most incredible badass women in space, who like are just doing insanely wonderful things we have rocket scientists astronauts, and these women are changing the world and we’re gonna have some pretty unfiltered conversation so I’m really excited about that. You can check out my Instagram and Twitter by the links in the bio and this is a very shameless plug, but if you want to hear actually we have, I know I spoke a lot about DEF CON and Blackhat and hacker communities. A lot of these stories are in my book which is coming out in 2022 It’s called Special Characters, my adventures with tech Titans and misfits which you can pre order on Amazon now but everybody thank you so much for joining you guys were so wonderful, and really insightful and thank you again for all the work you’re doing. Thank you. Thanks so much. Have a good night. Thanks.