Transcript: Women in Space: The Future is Female
This is a raw, unedited transcript of the Dot Dot Dot Conversation, “Women in Space: The Future is Female.”
You can listen to the full recording here.
Laurie Segall 0:00
You’re also known as the space gal, I love it and I love. You’ve been so inspiring to so many young women could you give a little bit of a self intro, tell us a little bit about yourself, of course, yes.
Emily Calandrelli 0:13
So, my name is Emily Calandrelli, often known as the space gal. My background, mostly in mechanical and aerospace engineering. I studied that stuff for about eight years. And then when I graduated from grad school I started doing a little bit more SATCOM work. So now I’m a science TV show host. I host and executive produce a show called exploration outer space on Fox which has been running for the last eight years. I’m a correspondent for Bill Nye on his Netflix show Bill Nye saves the world, and I have my own Netflix show that a lot of younger kids and families know me from called Emily’s wonder lab. And I have some children’s books, and I do some science, public speaking, and I do a lot of work on Tik Tok.
Laurie Segall 1:02
Love, I love that. And Yvette. Talk a little bit about your background, you’re the scientist astronaut candidate you have a fascinating background too so tell us a little bit about yourself.
Yvette Gonzalez 1:15
Hi, thank you, thank you all for having me. I’m for having this conversation such a relevant dialogue. First I’m Yvette Gonzales, I may just acknowledge all indigenous peoples listening today I am Native American. And so I honor Elders, past, present and Future across the earth that might be listening. I have over 23 years working in humanitarian and disaster response, and I now split my work with space, so I came into the industry, later, but for example today I focused half my time on Haiti and Afghanistan response. And then the remainder of my time, I am a spacesuit technician. I am a bio astronautics researcher for an institute for astronautical sciences, and I, yeah, I’m hopefully scientist astronaut candidate slated with our team to go in the future. So I kind of bridge the two. Can they marry well for space tech for Earth solutions.
Laurie Segall 2:10
Great. So I want to start, give you guys like a little bit of a confession, because I think vulnerabilities are important. I am kind of like a lay person when it comes to space, I have covered a little bit about me, I was our Senior Technology correspondent at CNN for over a decade. Now I’ve on top of that I’m the cofounder of Dot Dot Dot Media and we, we look at the intersection of, you know, technology and humanity. But I watched a lot of these startups kind of turn into these massive billion dollar companies and I never covered space too much right I’ve always just looked at it, I mean, no pun intended, this is horribly lame but from afar. You know and so I’m so excited to see what’s been happening over even the last, you know, the last couple months it’s in the mainstream narrative but this is, you know this is something that’s so special in general and I, you know, I think for me, I will ask you guys some questions and pull it back into a very basic question. What is it about space like you guys are both obsessed, right, you guys are both built your careers on it I know it seems like such an obvious question, right, especially for probably a lot of the people in the room, but what is it about space that you guys are so obsessed with that is the reason you got into this.
Emily Calandrelli 3:34
Well, I think for me, space just represents a lot of what I think is bold dreams and human nature, wanting to explore wanting to see over that next hill. And I think it’s a shared desire across many different cultures, many different countries, there are now many space agencies around the world international space agencies that want to have their own piece of space they recognize the benefit that space technology can bring to their economy that can bring to national pride. And it’s that shared experience for me that makes it so exciting, and the fact that like space just makes you feel really small, and that can make you feel one of two ways it can make you feel insignificant, or I think it can make you feel like the thing that you’re a part of is larger than yourself, and it makes the problems that you have also feel really small. And I love just looking up and knowing that there is so much that we don’t know. That in itself is something that I like to dream about and think about, and I don’t know, it brings me back to my childhood, I think.
Laurie Segall 4:51
And we also have Camille’s now in the room so I think alerting everyone we have a NASA rocket scientist who is amongst us. So Camille, why don’t you introduce yourself to the group.
Camille Alleyne 5:01
Hi everyone. First of all, sorry I’m late, Laurie. No, I mean, it’s been a day just got out of a meeting my last meeting. So, I’m just, I’m Camille Alleyne and I am a NASA senior leader at Johnson Space Center rocket scientists actually managing the future commercialization of space, futures pays destinations like space stations and private astronaut missions and everything commercial that has to do with low Earth orbit. Now I’m a 26 year veteran. Yeah, humanitarian, I have a foundation called the Brightest Stars Foundation that educates empowers and inspires young women around the world to be future leaders in science, technology and engineering.
Laurie Segall 6:02
Thank you, same question to you, Camille on that look what was it, you guys are obviously veterans of this, you know what, what is it about space that that got you into it, you all kind of talk about ever since you were younger, what what was it that was so appealing.
Yvette Gonzalez 6:24
Hi Camille. I’m so happy to be here with you. I will say, a lot of what Emily said, completely resonates. I have been a dreamer, my entire life and I think we’re amongst a lot of dreamers and doers. So, I believe just like her. I mean we have a shared destiny, as people, and we have our head in the stars or feet in the land. And really, that connectedness. I don’t know anyone on the planet that I have talked to that hasn’t lit up their eyes, sparked with fascination to talk about the stars, regardless of whether they have any experience so as a dreamer, I really have respect for what we’re doing as a species. So, that’s what excites me.
Laurie Segall 7:11
You know we’ve watched. And by the way for the group you get into guys like all know each other and hang out like wait what is the, what’s the connection between, I love that, that’s like hey Camille, how do you guys all know each other.
Camille Alleyne 7:29
I go a little ways back and we met on this globe, and as part of this global organization called the International astronaut Astronautical Federation, that is supported by all the major space agencies across the world and all the major space companies and, and so we serve on the same committee space, education and outreach and we’ve known each other for quite a few years. But this first circle is pretty small, especially in the US, it’s for, even though he bet is in Europe, it’s pretty small and then when you belong to these global organizations, it just, you know, you just get to meet people.
Laurie Segall 8:20
I think we put this panel together because we’ve watched. I think everybody’s watched over the last month, this billionaire space race, right. I’m curious, you know, as soon as the media. This has been viewed in so many different ways right this is the future this is a bunch of billionaires who have egos. It just depends on what headline you’re looking at right so I’m curious to the women in this room. How do you view all of this, how soon would we, how should we be thinking about all of this. Emily, you want to start.
Emily Calandrelli 8:58
Sure. Um, yeah, I think that the billionaires leading the way certainly ruffled some feathers, especially with people outside the space community who weren’t familiar with the work that has been happening that led up to this for the last two decades, because that’s what had been going on, engineers and teams at, you know, Blue Origin and Virgin Galactic and SpaceX they have been working toward these incredible flights for the last two decades, and the billionaire founders for Blue Origin and Virgin Galactic wrote on one of their first crewed flights for Blue Origin, it was their first crewed flight for Virgin Galactic, it was their first fully crewed flight. And I think to some the perspective was they were putting their life on the line on the technology they are expecting others to pay good money to ride. That was certainly one way to look at it and then another way that was maybe a bit more cynical was, you know they’re fulfilling their own ego trips by writing their own rockets to space and I’m sure part of it was that, but what I’m excited for is what’s to come, because now they are going to bring other people into space, and in the history of time in the history of humanity only like 570 Some people have ever gone to space only like 12% of those have been women, they’ve mostly been white they’ve mostly been American they’ve mostly been scientists and engineers. And now that pool of people who had seen our Earth from above our atmosphere is going to get a little bit more diverse. I think we’re all kind of anxious to see how much more diverse, it’s going to be because it’s still going to be a lot of rich people. But I do think we’re going to see some diversity at least in nationality and some background, some diversity and the, the jobs that they have. And so now I think everybody’s just sort of excited to see what comes next. Right,
Laurie Segall 11:00
And essentially it’s kind of paving the way for hopefully some real change and some real diversity there.
Camille Alleyne 11:06
I think it’s important to note that a lot of industries started out being very exclusive. This is analogous to the aviation industry right when we first started, I mean, the Wright brothers started with the technology, the government, the US government had a need to transport mail out faster than they were. And, you know, the government is in the business of enabling or fostering private enterprise right so they put the infrastructure in place and then commercial companies are able to come and offer these services. And when we were first doing aviation, it was all also very wealthy people who had exclusive access to flying transatlantic for example, right, and as more people got access to it, it drives the cost down, and then it’s it’s a cyclical effect when the cost is driven down, you have more people who have access and that’s how it goes. And so, you know, we’re hoping that’s the same thing with space of course space has some unique challenges with it, it’s extremely cost prohibitive. But it really is. This first, you know, Front chair where, you know, we government is an abling this private enterprise in space. NASA enabled SpaceX, there was a need that NASA had to transport cargo and, and, and class knots to the space station. And so they invested in commercial companies and that’s where we have the SpaceX and we have, we’re going to have a Boeing cruise capability coming online soon, but it’s really the beginning of opening up right commercial enterprise and hopefully as we get more and more of these flights. Exclusive to people who can afford it, it drives the cost of their transportation down, and as the cost of transportation goes down and access the space goes down, you get more people being able to afford it and then, you know, that whole cycle will will hopefully play out
Yvette I’m curious for your thoughts
Yvette Gonzalez 13:33
Oh, so I resonate with Camille because I’m excited about anything that inspires progress, but I’m also in a unique position with a history of being in unique positions to witness and contribute to communities facing adversity or trauma. And then always having to face that dichotomy, once I’m doing the other 50% which is exploration testing and research. And all I can imagine is, these are steps that might someday, innovate a solution that we’ve never imagined before. And so maybe I’m the optimist, but when a couch that in the future of what possibility it’s Can we maybe uproot how we’ve approached Earth challenges, can we uproot how we’ve done Disaster Mitigation and response you know that could change. So this access for me especially being part of a research team, who is slated to go on one of the flights are researchers preparing and it’s what can we do to really advance our technology and make it meaningful on Earth.
Laurie Segall 14:39
I mean, You know I think we, we hear you guys are at the forefront of trying to create diversity and change, when we talk about the future of space travel, as a woman in media who’s talked a lot about diversity and change like, you know, there are so many things that happen behind the scenes that make it so difficult and I’m sure that you know there’s so many frustrations, right. And this is such an important cause there’s so many the 1000s of jobs I think that support these missions that you guys talk about and so many of them are predominantly filled by, I would say white straight men, you know, What do you guys think is the way to really, you know now that this is this is in the mainstream you guys have been working on this, how do you guys think you can change some of these systems that have been in place for for so long, especially, even I think the popular culture narrative I think sometimes around the astronaut and I think Emily you’re probably doing a lot of work on this with, you know, changing the cultural narrative around space and for women, but even some of those images of the astronauts from back in the day to still see kind of the men, so what do you think is the root of trying to change some of this.
Emily Calandrelli 15:55
Yeah I mean it’s definitely this is there’s no silver bullet to this issue, it’s, there’s 1000 things that need to be done. Unfortunately, to help people who have been historically excluded from this industry. Feel welcome to pursue it and then stay once they’re there, one specific tangible thing that I’m really excited about that I joined the executive team of recently is a fellowship called the Brooke Owens Fellowship, which is a fellowship for women and non binary students who want to work in the aerospace industry. And it’s just this incredible group of students who find each other because when I was an engineering and undergrad I was one of maybe two or three women, and when you walk into a room like that. There’s this feeling that like you’re in the wrong room. And this fellowship helps combat that feeling to provide community and opportunities and networking and all of the things that have traditionally not been available for women and non binary students in this industry. There’s other fellowships that are similar. There’s a sister fellowship called the Patti Gray Smith fellowship that’s very similar fellowship, but for Black students, and they’re all trying to combat this problem of trying to make people who have been historically excluded from the aerospace industry feel more welcome.
Right. And, coming to you in your career you’ve, you’ve been able to see this base program shift with your work with NASA and the government to really what it is today. What has been the biggest shift and, and, you know war stories are welcome, because no one’s on camera we can share, you know, we can share what happens behind the scenes so what is, you know, what’s been the biggest shift for you and what you’ve what you’ve seen over the years. Oh my gosh. Imagine you’ve had like a big glass of wine next time, just give us some behind the scenes, exclusive like space like tea.
Camille Alleyne 18:03
I don’t know why it isn’t space tea, I just I hope i No, no, I would say we are getting better but we have a long way to go, right, we have a really long way to go our leadership. I mean we have more women in leadership, I mean senior leadership positions, but it’s still about 30% And I remember saying that in a room and somebody says we wish we had 30% women in our industry whatever they were talking about, but we have a long way to go in terms of the diversity and we, I mean, last year really broke open. A lot of the space to really have a lot of conversations about a lot of the biases that still exist in our, in our agency, right, and the fact that people of color are not promoted as much, or at the rates of either hours, right, so we have a lot a lot of work to do there, but I think the first thing is awareness. And the second is the will to want to change it right and the third is actually being intentional and putting specific measures and programs and initiatives in place that are effective and will make a profound and sustainable difference, right, and that’s where the work needs to be done.
I mean, I think about the idea of sexism in space and what does that look like I look at my career and covering technology. And you know I covered, I guess it was since 2009. And it was these subtle things that people said right that you almost like can’t put your finger on but then when you add them all off, you’re like, oh wait that’s, that’s really not okay, right, and some specific stuff I remember being at a Kleiner Perkins party which is a big venture capitalist party, and having a, an entrepreneur walk up to me and say you must be a female entrepreneur, you must have like a wedding app or something like that, you know, and you just these little, maybe knobs a little bias. The, you know the bias things that you hear throughout I remember another, founder of a very big company saying to me, talking about another journalist saying you know I think he’s very provocative and also why and he’s like well she stays at the parties late I was like well you guys all get drunk and, you know, tell all those secrets of your companies, then, like everyone, the male journalist at the parties like to, you know, and the standard was just so different for women than men. Do you guys have any specifics because it’s really, I think when you pinpoint it, You know I’m curious to know how that translates to sexism in space right do you guys have any specific examples of how, you know, your life would have been different if your name was Henry or something like that or something you’ve faced personally in your career in this industry where you said, Okay, that’s not okay, I want to change this or this is, this is really doesn’t feel okay. Emily or Yvette, do a hard one thing to talk about our trauma.
Emily Calandrelli 21:15
Yeah, I mean, I think that like one specific example, as someone who covers the space industry. There are others who have received this much worse. And I’m like, hesitant to name any names because I don’t want to bring any more harassment towards them but female journalists when they criticize SpaceX, they have Musk bros, which they are so elegantly called will come after them with really violent harassment. That is completely unjustified and not experienced a little bit of it back in the day I had some by forget what topic it was even about but I had criticized SpaceX or you on Musk about something, and I had Twitter, trolls, kind of, bombarding Bill Nye to fire me from the show, because I’m no longer the space gal if I have any valid criticisms of a company that I love. When you know that you don’t see the male, journalists, getting that same harassment, which is hard to see. Yeah.
Yvette Gonzalez 22:26
And I think what you refer to it you know it’s important to note, like, I think we acknowledges microaggressions, I think that’s what you’re referring to it that subtle intonations of what happens and and I will say is that there have been some panels in the past year that really addressed that. But it was this larger dialogue of acknowledgement that I’m not crazy, these microaggressions are happening and they don’t happen just in this industry this is kind of prevalent in other industries, and these go alongside of a conversation that I know for me is is really important I know Camille was part of this conversation last year was definitely for, what does that mean when we talk about how we move forward in this industry and how we create allies, right, and, and it made us move forward beyond the typical allyship to help overcome microaggression like acknowledging it following all the steps that Camille laid out and making sure that there’s solutions and acting on it, but it’s like, beyond mentoring beyond championing really being an accomplice to someone and saying, I’m not going to just champion your cause and put your name in for promotion and I’m not just going to make sure that person gets, you know, right up for their behavior because we all witnessed that and we’re not going to say it out loud. It’s actually saying it out loud, and then going in and saying, I’m going to put my reputation at risk, to help you succeed. And I think that’s really important.
Camille Alleyne 23:52
That is so perfect event that’s exactly what I was gonna say, so many times. I know if I knew the importance of sponsorship and advocacy in my career I think I would have been, I would have gotten to where I am a lot quicker. But oftentimes you don’t know that, and sometimes it’s not advocacy and sponsorship is not something you can actively go out and ask somebody to be my sponsor, ask somebody to be my advocate, those are relationships that are built over time. And when you’re in an environment where people feel more comfortable with people who look like them, it is actually really hard to build those type of relationships to the point, they’re willing to speak up for you they’re willing to go to bat for you they’re talking about you in a positive way when you are not in the room, and they’re saying hey you know, no she has been working her butt off. She deserves a promotion she deserves to be put in this leadership position, she deserves. You know like that and so it is so important to, to break down those barriers to uncover those biases those implicit and explicit biases. So that people understand that these are the dynamics that I play. When there is not equity when there is not diversity when there is not inclusion. And the last thing I’ll say is that it’s sometimes not even my core sometimes as microaggressions, and it’s like any office. You know you’re like, oh my gosh I can’t believe that person said this or did that and yeah so it’s it’s a lot.
Yvette Gonzalez 25:40
Can I quote, a panel that Camille was on last year, and Charles Bolden was on, and I think my favorite quote from that was, they were talking about how people pretended that there wasn’t aggression and pretended there wasn’t discrimination and he’s like, You damn did know everybody just thought, oh my gosh he just called everybody out. And it was refreshing.
Laurie Segall 26:00
Yeah. I love that. I also want to welcome Alexandria, Welcome to the stage, if you want to introduce yourself and if you have any, any questions for folks I think some folks on the panel know you do so, I want to introduce yourself.
Alexandria Baca 26:16
Absolutely yeah my name is Alexandria. I’m currently a first gen in college aerospace engineering students last semester I was at NASA Goddard Space Flight Center as a robotic Satellite Servicing intern. I’m currently at Virgin Galactic as a large scale test intern, I’m actually an inaugural I’m 2021 Patti Gray Smith fellow as well, which I know was explained early but I’ll briefly say provides black students that are in their first and second year of the undergrad degree with their first work experience in the aerospace industry and incredibly valuable mentorship and yes I do know a few people up here I do see some familiar faces Hello Camille especially. Great.
Laurie Segall 26:55
And Yvette your current project possum, I mean explain a little bit about that it’s known for real NASA supportive research it’s not space tourism, it has a team of 13 women, this is kind of the other side of the civilian space race, can you, can you tell us about that.
Yvette Gonzalez 27:12
Sure. It’s really interesting because it is academic courses that do training and Astronautics which is introducing people really at an affordable rate I have to say to the spacesuit environment, what it means to be in an iba and an EPA spacesuit, what it means to work in space, physiologically, and then it’s a whole series, you can do the program about two years, but it’s all online, and then there’s campaigns in person where we go to the Apollo training sites and we do geological testing, we go to Canadian Space Agency and we do gravity offset testing in an EPA suit. We do microgravity flights, once a year. And in those microgravity flights we invite partners to do their science and their technology maturation. And the reason you see me in this blue suit was a third generation, Ida suit that we were testing so as a spacesuit tech I get to test them when they come out, and before they get used in all of these campaigns. What we do is offer through this entire, you know, program. We have 46 countries represented, and almost 300 people right now for all the cohorts and they offer as volunteers, everything you see in my bio, so I took time in my bio this weekend to obtain resources. And we have possum 13 Which Wali Fung, which are the remaining surviving Mercury 13 advisors, and they are advisors to our team. We offer once a year microgravity challenge for young girls around the world to compete to fly their science, and one of their team members in microgravity with us, so we’ve done it for three years, and about January February we released the new challenge for the following year, so that’ll be coming. But yeah we mentor offer programs, access to experts, and definitely helping science to be real for them. And as you look, we also do that for emerging space nations. So, there’s a, there’s a lot of access to outreach that we do that really is part of who we are as individuals, as citizens. And what we want to be offering, because now we actually have the first industry contracted researcher on our team who is going to fly with Virgin Galactic so Alexandria. So you saw that. And now it’s our place right now, to do what Camille was talking about, like to actually create, and we’re pioneering this so it’s not been done before. The world’s most diverse pipeline of commercial astronauts, because we believe the future is equitable and this is part of what they say is that new normal. Right.
Laurie Segall 29:57
I think it’s when you talk about diverse astronauts like what do you think the modern day astronauts should look like, I know what, you know, history and kind of pop culture has put out there but what do you guys think the modern day astronaut looks like.
Camille Alleyne 30:12
The diversity of the world in all different shapes, colors, sizes, genders, non binary, people with disabilities. I mean, everything.
Laurie Segall 30:32
And we look to the future of space I mean let’s go, you know, what is the future space look like, what, what role will human beings play, you know right now yes you guys talk about, we’ve seen a lot of the rich dudes billionaires tech folks are going to space and these kind of these, you know, over the last month, but like, what, what will this look like in the future like when we pull this out, let’s say we can you know we can take it 10 years from now 100 years from now, you know what will be human beings in the relationship with space, what will that look like.
Emily Calandrelli 31:09
I think it’s probably gonna look a lot like what parabolic flight look like today, which is the flight that my picture in my profile is from when I was an undergrad I did research and fluid on something called the vomit comet that flies in the air like an 8000 foot roller coaster, it goes up and down and up and down, and it does that to the people and the science experiments inside float weightless. And so weightless environments are really good environment to do scientific research, And so we had sounding rockets before then basically just suborbital rockets that would go up and down and provide brief moments of weightlessness, if you wanted to go even shorter and even cheaper you could do a drop tower, basically an elevator where you cut the cord and just let it freefall for two to three seconds, sounding rockets provide a few more seconds in that parabolic flights provide 25 seconds and suborbital flights provide about, you know, three to five minutes depending on what rocket you’re on and parabolic flights are more accessible, which hopefully suborbital flights will become in the future and parabolic flights are filled with both people who want to do scientific research, and people who just want to go for fun, who can afford the I think it’s like 5000 $6,000 ticket to go on one of these flights, and those flights with researchers are filled with young students, I was, I don’t know. 19/ 20 Maybe at the time when I did my science research on the vomit commit. And so I think that it’s going to look a little bit like that a little bit of research and a little bit of fun.
Laurie Segall 32:56
I love that this is called the vomit comet, I mean, it’s like very painted a little more but wow.
Camille Alleyne 33:04
I hope we’ll be, we wouldn’t send humans to Mars by them, and be able to return them safely if they to the earth, if they so choose. Right and we know that a lot of challenges with that but hoping that they have quite a few missions to Mars with humans. In, within the next 100 years.
Laurie Segall 33:27
What do you think is the biggest barrier and getting us to Mars or getting human beings to Mars.
Camille Alleyne 33:33
Well, we talk about this all the time it’s the exposure to space radiation which is the number one risk that actually now makes it depending on how much exposure you’re getting can make it a one way trip. It’s the tackling the isolation, right, on, on the way there and on the way back on the psychological aspects of it. And then just, you know that the diversity of gravitational forces that you’re going to experience, zero on the way there on a third, or six hours get mixed up on, on, on the surface, and then coming back to Earth, one G right so there’s so many of these factors that the human body. Right now, as it is and I know that these concepts, these advanced concepts, too. You know maybe modify genetically ourselves and stuff to be able to withstand that type of radiation but for right now, you know there are a lot of these different aspects that are impeding a trip and safe return. Right to the earth.
Laurie Segall 34:52
I mean in the work that you guys do. The stakes are so high right you know we always you see the movies, when people go into space and we talk about even by the way, someone like Richard Branson, trusting his own technology to ever have conversations with folks who’ve gone to space and you know what, what they do to prepare before in case they don’t come back, I know this is such a dark question, but I just think in this industry, the stakes are so high, and you have to, you really are. The dream is so big, you know, Do people ever talk about being afraid.
Yvette Gonzalez 35:25
No, I would say, because we have a mix right we have a mix of people who want to just go, you know, ISS, or just some want to go to the moon. Some want to go to Mars and this conversation is what I think is really healthy to have. I don’t think it’s dark. But then again, you’re also talking to someone who had to like, at age of 22 I had to write down like if something happens to me in Afghanistan, you know, or something happens to me in Somalia, and I’ve always had to acknowledge that because then you just move past it and you say okay, so here’s the planning so that we’re all okay with what’s about to happen. and it really forces you to face. What is this word. What is all of this word. And that forces you to know whether you’re doing it for the right reasons, and whether you’re meant to do it right. And that’s the same kind of question in your gut you get when you take a job when you move to another country when you change your house, when you start dating someone when you have children, is this big change in this big option in my life because it’s an option and it’s a decision. Is it worth the sacrifice and if it is, or you’re okay with that, then that’s probably the right thing to do. What’s it worth to you. It’s worth the future. And I’m someone, you know, I, my family’s Native American and Mexican, we honor our ancestors, we honor the future and emerging elders and in our circles and in our families and who we honor the interconnectedness with this world. And if it means that there’s something better in the future, we always think of seven generations ahead. If it’s better for them, then the sacrifice will have been worth it.
Laurie Segall 37:08
Tara, I want to welcome to the stage you’re up here so I want to I definitely want to acknowledge you and introduce yourself and do you have questions for folks.
Tara Ruttley 37:16
Until have questions for folks that was invited out but I’m Tara Ruttley I’m Associate Chief Scientist for microgravity research at NASA headquarters in the Office of the Chief Scientist. I’m also a colleague and friend of Camille’s so hey can you know I just tuned in to listen because I saw these powerful women on stage and, and my friends and thought I tuned in to see what I could learn. I’m happy to tell you.
Laurie Segall 37:45
Sure. I mean, what are you excited about lately. So you’re, you’re in the arena, what’s exciting for you lately.
Tara Ruttley 37:52
Yeah, I think what’s exciting. Um, well there’s two parts that are exciting to me. The first is that we’re planning to go back to the moon, and say, long, long term longer than we did with Apollo, which is exciting to me because my office I get to look across all the organizations within NASA who are working to do that and to say, you know, I’ve been at NASA for 20 years. And there’s always been talk of, you know, little pockets of people talking about going back to the moon or going to the moon or going to Mars and all these ideas for habitats or how to keep people healthy or how to grow food and all these things that have just kind of been a little pockets in the background over the last 20 years and now it’s, it’s becoming reality so all these little pockets of people with these great ideas they’ve been developing for the last two decades or more are coming together and making it happen for real all these ideas and these dreams and all this energy that has been put on hold for a while, are now like real, and we’re having working groups and we’re having, you know, organized conferences and pulling in experts and, and, and get the chance to now design, a permanent place to live on the moon. And then what does that mean about, you know, us being able to then go and explore Mars as human beings because there’s so much, we’ve got to do. And thankfully we’ve learned a lot from the last 20 years of living on the space station too so that excites me but also with the work that Camille is doing really excites me too because she and I were like call each other text each other and talk about all the really exciting. Private astronaut things that are going on and she and I have been space geeks for as long as we’ve been little and have both been through the astronaut selection process, and know what it what it feels like at heart to want to be one of those. And, and, and how it how tough it is and how exclusive it has been our whole, our whole careers. So it’s been really really exciting we both get giddy and she calls me more inspired than I even am actually she’s inspired by seeing all these developments and all these new private astronauts who are are getting ready to go into low earth orbit, and what does that mean and for me that means just more knowledge, I mean, and she and I have talked about this for me, going to low Earth orbit means more than just staring down at the Earth and having that epiphany and wanting to come back into it’s more to me it’s about the kind of knowledge that we can gain from being up there and doing the experiment and trying new things and the different personalities and so that that’s those two things are super exciting for me and being a part of all that right now.
Because a lot of people in this room probably have not been to the astronauts selection process I’m just going to, assuming but I could be wrong. What an extraordinary thing to go through that process, right here compared with me like, What is the craziest part of that what was the hardest part for you guys.
Tara Ruttley 40:43
I, I’ll tell you what the hardest part was for me and then I’ll let Camille speak. the hardest part for me, it’s just that it’s not, it’s really not for the faint of heart. You have six to 12,000 or 15,000 18,000 applicants, and a very long application process, and, and NASA doesn’t always communicate step by step with you. So, the worst and most complicated part for me is not the interview and it’s not the physical process and it’s not all you know all the things that happen when you’re there, it’s what happens when you’re not there. And I think that a lot I mean most everyone I know who’ve been through selection process will say that it’s like months go by and you hear nothing and then you hear something and then yeah, we made it through the next step and then months go by and then nothing and then Oh, okay. So it’s kind of like a roller coaster ride over about a two almost a two year process and that to me. This is the hardest thing.
Camille Alleyne 41:39
No I think is spot on. And for me, in addition to that, it was like I had joined all these astronaut hopeful groups or mailing lists and they would put out all these things that they thought were part of the process, and you’re trying to hang on every word and, and get yourself a line and get your pilot license get your scuba diving license and all that stuff and it’s, it’s not about that, and it’s about some of that, and you don’t know as Tara said right and then interview, Just, just that interview with these 15 pair of eyes, all looking at you and most of them are astronauts and they’re really new about your life and you know what you’ve done since high school. Yes, it’s pretty intimidating. Yeah.
Tara Ruttley 42:36
I’m sorry. I wanted to Camille brought up is that everyone’s doing what they think they can do to update their resume and make it good, but it doesn’t matter what you do, you know, when I visited the Johnson Space Center in high school on a field trip and I got to ask an astronaut. What do you need to do to get to be an astronaut, what should I do, and he said, Honestly it’s really really tough to get selected it’s a hard thing so just do what you love. And if you do what you love and you you know you meet all the requirements, eventually, you know, either will accept you and you’ll get selected but if not, you’ll, you’ll be doing something you love and something that you’re successful and happy with and that’s really what matters at the end of it all because I would really look at how fast 20 years goes by or 30 years goes by, you want to be happy with what you’re doing and having the biggest impact. And if that means, right now, I’m a scientist, that means right now I’m a scientist right now Camille is working commercialization that’s what she’s doing and then it’s not over though, you just have to keep going and just love what you do.
Laurie Segall 43:36
Yeah, I think I’m for the whole panel, you know, I think, space, it used to be a consistent part of the national conversation. Maybe I’m biased because I’m in media but like over the last, you know, three, four or five years it’s we’ve, we’ve, you know, I don’t feel like we hear about as much as consistently as we used to, there’s a lot happening here on Earth. Can we get there again, you know, should we how do we make space, a part of this national conversation and then I would just say part two of that, you know, and I, because I don’t want this to get lost like how do we target young women, because, you know, we know that girls, women are systematically tracked away from science and math throughout their educations. You know I think the stat is something like women are nearly half of the US workforce but only 27% of STEM workers so how do we get space into the national popular conversation in a way that it used to and what sense and and how do we really bring women into that if this is the future.
Camille Alleyne 44:44
Um, they, you have things by them, one by having representation I think representation matters and it’s so important. And oftentimes you can’t be what you don’t see. So seeing yourself represented in these fields is very very important. You have to engage them early on in STEM activities and, and, and, in robotics and building Legos and you know all these different types of engagement activities that has shown to really sustain the interest of girls and young women, and then it’s a lot about building their confidence or them building their confidence and, and, as a global mentor. I spend a lot of time building up the confidence of young women so that they know that they can thrive in these environments and they can thrive in these fields, and it doesn’t happen in isolation, but it’s them really finding their voice and knowing that they have something to say, they have something to contribute. And they, you know can be valued in these fields. And so that’s what I’ve found is really the linchpin it’s, it’s, it’s a lot of our confidence, because if you have that then, you know, no matter how hard the road is you, you will have the fortitude to endure.
Yvette Gonzalez 46:27
You know, I have to agree completely, because you’re we’re in a place in a time where there is, as you can see from from the Olympics, you know, we have a time when generations are colliding, we have so many generations alive today, who all have different perspectives on how to address work career. personal life and choices. So I think one thing that, that really, I think is a critical starter point is that us as as industry professionals, as you know, working in our careers. We have to be a catalyst for each other, to, so that I can lead a student if I don’t have a resource, I can say well watch Emily’s show. It’s a phenomenal show. Do you have Wi Fi, and that’s a great starting point for education, or I can say, you know look at Camille she’ll be on x y panel, please have access to that you should sign up for it. And even in the audience here, you know a lot of profiles are not there so I don’t know what everyone does but I saw a few aerospace engineers, and it really is about connecting with us so that we can amplify each other, and then provide inroads, right, because if you look at the My Profile. The reason in my bio I did this, is that there are so many programs, I couldn’t list them all because in fact it’s the first time I’ve been told there’s a limit on my profile. There are a list of programs that are actively engaging and giving opportunity, they’re actively places you can go if you need resources for Native American communities, African communities, Asian communities and Arabic speaking communities, you know, you ask that this community knows each other. Yeah, we all know each other, and, and we all know of each other. And the biggest resource we can meet is to really usher in like, here’s where you actually have access in our doors closed, let me show you another one that’s open. So that’s what we try to do in our programs, what I try to do. And hopefully, there will be a permanent matches what our student, whether it’s a boy or girl. What they actually can do with where they are. And I do. Sorry, go ahead.
Nicky Bernal 48:39
I’m sorry I just wanted to add a few weeks ago I got to have a conversation with a person named Heather Penny. She was one of the F 16 fighter pilots that scrambled. On 911, to look for the plane that was, that ultimately ended up going down over Pennsylvania that was headed for the Pentagon, and we were talking about how to get more interested in STEM and more women interested in STEM and what, what do we think the issue is here, it’s the same question you asked, but you asked about space but it’s applicable. And she said well you know I think it’s about the end product, you know, we’ve been talking to a lot of students about get involved in science and get involved in engineering and technology and math and we need more. We need those careers we need you. And she said, But, but, what made you want to go into space, the space industry power what made because I used also wanted to be an F 16 fighter pilots like what made you want to fly that I said, Well, he said adventure. I said yeah, just like, think of all the STEM careers out there that are associated with an adventure, there’s lots of them, and even if it’s not explicitly adventurous, we should be talking about them how they are adventurous and and how you can contribute to that adventure if you’re part of that adventure. And so it was an interesting, it was an interesting conversation coming from a fighter pilot. And as I’ve had these conversations so many times before, even with Camille. Camille and I’ve had these thoughts too it’s like, we don’t lie. How can you get more women involved in space, and if it hits the nail on the head as well as meeting them where they are, we use that term a lot is basically trying to change the way we communicate to get their attention and Emily does this beautifully with her, with her work, of course, she puts the adventure in the outcome and, and so when we as, as, as role models are out there, like Yvette said speaking to younger generation, or women who are interested in getting the fields we need to remember that spirit of adventure, even if someone doesn’t want to jump out of an airplane, or doesn’t want to go into space, they would probably feel fulfilled and find excitement in contributing to that and you can do that through all these different areas of STEM.
Emily Calandrelli 50:54
And I just wanted to add on everything that you all are saying because I it resonates so much but studies have also shown that girls at a higher rate than boys value altruistic careers. So careers where it feels like they are making the world a bit better, or helping others. They also at a higher rate than boys want to work with others. And so this narrative that we have sold in the past of like an isolated genius scientist who works alone, or maybe a purely capitalistic goal of creating the next new hot technology or the next big rocket and sending Tesla’s into space these like really big explosive flashy things, those only resonate with a certain group of people. And so I think there are stories that we can tell about the space industry and the wonderful work that’s being done here, that would cast a wider net to the next generation, and just a couple of examples I think companies like Starlink and one Webb who are trying to bring the World Wide Web, to the world, because right now when we have the world has access to the internet. Imagine how the world will change when the World Wide Web is actually worldwide when we can bring educational materials to places that don’t have decent schools or telemedicine to places that don’t have decent hospitals that the internet is a tool that builds businesses and builds economies and only half the world has it. There’s also companies like planet formerly Planet Labs that is looking back down at the Earth and creating a new earth selfie every day so that when we have natural disasters we can track where those natural disasters are going and efficiently allocate resources to people who needed the most. Saving Lives saving property all of these wonderful things that we can only do with isin in space with Space Technology.
Laurie Segall 52:45
You know, we talk a little bit. I love that we talk a little bit about changing the narrative to talk about, you know the adventure and really, then I can relate to that in the storytelling by to and really giving people an idea of how incredible this can be and I also think visibility matters, right, you know, especially young people need role models. I’m curious. for you guys who are the women you look up to and you admire and space in the STEM industries.
Camille Alleyne 53:16
So for me, I mean, it’s the women who are featured as Hidden Figures. Right. The, they will known as the human computers in the early days of NASA, Catherine Johnson, Dorothy Vaughan, and Mary Jackson, and so many others, and I am clear that I stand on their shoulders right and I would not have reached where I am, if it were not for them paving the way. And so, you know, I did not know about them early in my life. I got to know about them, maybe five or six years ago but, you know, they, they really paved the way for me to be able to do what I’m doing today.
Yvette Gonzalez 54:07
And I would add, you know, there’s so many women in history who really inspire us, but I also think about the women now who are actively advocating for avenues that are open to other women and I put a few on my profiles like I put like STEM ambassadors, because I really want to share, and I feel like just always been a catalyst for information and for connecting people. And I feel it’s a travesty when you hide that from people, so the more that we can share these women’s names and their attributes in fact some of them are in the room today. So those names there are representing different countries, it’s you know, France, Mali, Trinidad. We have, you know, even Native Americans I put their American flag with them but they’re also indigenous so it’s important that there’s representation for women who are active today as well.
Laurie Segall 55:02
There’s, I almost hate to ask this question but I’ve heard this criticism, a lot. So, you know, I know that there’s, there’s so much criticism that there’s a lot of there’s so many problems here on Earth. I think everyone can probably agree to that, if you look at the news even today. So the idea is, why are we spending so much money to go to space, why are all these billionaires throwing all this money at this when when really, really should just fix what’s happening here on earth. What do you guys think.
Emily Calandrelli 55:33
I think if we’ve put ourselves into a position where we are relying on billionaires to fix these collective problems of humanity. It’s not necessarily the billionaires that are the issue it’s the society that led to that predicament. For me, you know, space companies are the reason billionaires exists. I think people see billionaires going into space, and it brings up a lot of feelings of anger towards the inequality that we have here on earth very valid emotions and very valid problems space companies are a symptom of the cause, they are not the cause of that inequality because space companies, just by design are incredibly expensive to do. They’re high risk, high cost and you can only really create large ones. If you are a billionaire and if you have the wealth to just constantly pour money into these problems and these technology problems and so these space companies that these billionaires have created. I would say that in many ways they are making these billionaires less wealthy because they’re investing so much of their own money into it. But for me, I see it as just, you know, this is the latest conversation that we’re having about the very real problem of inequality, we see something flashy like a rocket launch, and we want to blame it on that. But these rocket launches they’re 500,000 600,000 maybe dollars to go into space. Rich people buy McLaren’s, which are the same price. There’s 5000 of those sold a year those fancy cars, you know, people buy a million dollar yachts all the time and we don’t bat an eye on that. But this is really really flashy, so I would encourage people who are angry, angry like very validly angry about the inequality that exists to not just focus on the shiny thing that’s taking place right now, but to have the harder conversation about why this inequality exists and what led us here.
Yvette Gonzalez 57:36
I also, I agree with that. And I think it’s important, and there’s so many conversations that this evokes, and one of them and I have talked to Camille about this and maybe you know Tara might have insight as well. I really tried to drive home. What space technology has done for us. And NASA has a website actually where they have logged and they had to do this publicly because in the 70s they were getting some flack for for spending taxpayer dollars. And so it has existed, there’s over 1700 technologies that’s fun, awesome space, and I have conversations, You know, Saudi Girls, girls, in Ghana, and when we do webinars that we talk about, go to your kitchen and grab a canned food. Go get the thermometer that you might have at home that teacher temperature, you know, when we say, or get the water filter that you’re purifying your water with, and we talk through, you know that came from space, and we talked through like why it was created, and how it’s now on their shelf and they have space technology in their home, and changes their lives, that kind of connection. I think we do that more people will see the relevance, and the magnitude of how space actually has always affected us on Earth and has done good for medical research and for helping us with chemotherapy and all of these aspects are really important to share, I think the more that we know about what we do in our daily lives that came from space. I think that connection makes it more tangible.
Alexandria Baca 59:11
I’d like to comment if that’s all right. So, as an aerospace engineering student, especially having worked at NASA, I would, of course, my personal Can you say really provides you with such a unique way to contribute to the sustainability of the human race far beyond our time, you really have to have a forward thinking long term mindset with a goal of making a difference, and kind of piggybacking off of what was just said of so many of NASA’s research developments and even ongoing missions impact each and every single one of us. Yes, in this room including in our day in our day to day lives. I’m speaking on behalf of satellites to the hosts in the Satellite Servicing division satellites provides so incredibly much from monitoring and assessing impacts of climate change and human activities and coastlines, from mapping forests to monitor their health and estimating their biomass, detecting and reporting oil pollution and water such as Canada, to tracking marine traffic in real time to reduce the effects of ship noise on a whale. Yes, that’s pretty cool. I can honestly go on and on forever about the use of space is so relevant and necessary and I absolutely love to be an advocate.
Camille Alleyne 1:00:24
Can I just add to that Laurie sorry yeah every I was gonna say everything Alexandra said right is the vantage point of space that that helps our Earth. Right, but it’s also in the process of developing Space Technology, and doing all this mapping, you are building capacity. Right you are building human capacity in in science literate ways right and highly tech not technological ways. And so, I will have the question is often flip to developing countries, why would you want to invest in space, because there are a lot of developing countries that are getting involved in space exploration not necessary to not necessarily to, to, to send humans to Mars, or even send humans to the moon, but they see the value of space for development for development of their country for the uplift of their citizens right and and training and educating the next generation of scientists and engineers and technologists and having those skills, those people who are problem solvers and critical thinkers are the skills you need to solve any problem here on Earth. Right. And so those are the things that we actually don’t talk about we just talk about the billionaires, but they actually all these other kind of ancillary ways in which you know we benefit as humanity from the exploration can.
Laurie Segall 1:02:11
That’s, that’s great. I know we had to wrap in a little bit but I would love to have Nikki, introduce herself because Nikki’s up on stage now and, and tell us a little bit about herself so hi Nikki.
Nicky Bernal 1:02:21
Hi everybody, My name is Nikki Bernal I am currently an apprentice and contract administrator for Blue Origin, I previously worked for NASA. For the shuttle program and the International Space Station program as well as the Mars Rover program, and also with Northrop Grumman in their blackout space programs so I you know I grew up with aerospace I’m an aerospace family member, my dad also works for NASA as so just happy to be here and contribute any way that I can.
Laurie Segall 1:02:53
And we talked a lot during this whole panel about, you know, getting more women in space and getting more diversity there, your Blue Origin is any anything in your experience have you dealt with any anything specifically that you know you can say okay, I think, I think some of this is a problem and I want to help other women, you know get here anything you face that, that you would talk about that you think is important to kind of bring up as we move forward in this.
Nicky Bernal 1:03:24
Well to be honest with you, Blue Origin is very female centric in our, in our work for the aerospace program, actually, Andrea Wazowski, who is now the head of our program for vasos is a female, who previously worked for NASA. So, you know she tries to keep things female centric as much as she can. But, um, you know the one thing I do appreciate is that the lunar lander mission, hopefully, once we get it settled with the protests with NASA and everything else that is going to be our first opportunity to get heels on the moon, as I like to say get our first female astronauts on the moon, which has always been a goal, but, um, you know it’s struggles in procurement at least with women, it’s very male centric for the engineering side and sometimes it can become a little bit of a power struggle when you’re trying to work with the prime contract engineers, but, you know, we all need to start coming together and know that we all are going for the same goal, no matter what gender we are. My ultimate goal is to get that lunar lander mission, we want to work with NASA, as much as we can.
Laurie Segall 1:04:35
And this is, I feel like this is a very embarrassing question I’m about to ask, but I just I’ve have to as a lay person, I’ve just I started on this panel by saying I don’t know a ton about space but you guys are all such incredible badass women who have taken so much of your putting devoted so much of your life to space. Do you believe there are other living creatures in space or are we alone, I know this is such an uncool question I’d like to ask such like powerhouse, women, but I just as a lay person.
Nicky Bernal 1:05:10
What do you think I had to be the first one you asked that right biologist, and my chief is Chief Scientist Jim Green and if anybody has heard him speak. He will tell you, he does believe there is life on other planets and he does believe they’ll find, we’ll find on Mars and his feel is that if we microbial. So to answer your question maybe indirectly yeah.
Nicky Bernal 1:05:36
Yeah I do believe there’s other life out there. It’s just our, our minds can’t comprehend even what our telescopes are finding our farthest reaching telescopes as a biologist, I can you, and you have all heard this quote, If you’ve seen the movie, life will find a way. If you’ve seen Jurassic Park. Life will always find a way. And it’s not just on earth so yes I believe it, my chief believes it, and thanks for asking anybody else to answer the chair that was a great answer any anybody else. Okay, oh I echo with Tara things completely and with Jim. Jim’s amazing Mr greens amazing, so yes on the microbial biological level of it. Yes, I do think there is life out there, and organisms that we don’t understand and further reaching areas that we could possibly imagine and we’d bright future to find those things and discover those things.
Laurie Segall 1:06:37
Well I know we all got to wrap soon so last question for everybody and I think Emily’s got to jump off too because this is supposed to end at six and you guys are just very interesting so I kept going. So I’m sorry to disrespect everyone’s time. So last question. How do you guys want to be known. I mean, we look at legacy and I just think when I think space, I think of the legacy of the people that came before and you know those landings on the moons and it’s just, it’s the stuff even me as someone who doesn’t know so much about this, I grew up with those images, right, and you guys are pushing that forward. So how do you guys want to be known.
Yvette Gonzalez 1:07:11
Hey, it is one in the morning here and I’m totally happy about this. I was hard to answer that because, because I do think about legacy a lot. And I just would hope that I’m known as a part of shifting the climate crisis, and in some way making this earth better that’s the legacy that I hope I leave, and whether I do that through space or I stay here on Earth, doing the work that I have been doing through humanitarian work. I just want to know that in some way I was able to shift this crisis and do something better for the next generation.
Camille Alleyne 1:08:00
For me I think it’s in two ways I want to be known as a pioneer and trailblazer in space as one of the few women of color in this industry, but more importantly for me, I want to be known as that person who made a profound and lasting difference in the lives of young people around the globe, especially young girls girls of color from developing countries that’s really what I give a lot of my life to and, yeah, that, yeah, that moves me the most.
Nicky Bernal 1:08:55
I’m just happy to have been a part of. I mean I spent my whole career, watching. You know I started NASA in 2001 and in there, only you know the discussions around sending anybody but NASA on a rocket to interface with that space station was not a credible conversation. And now look how far we’ve come, so I’m just honored to have been a part of, of that process, in one way or another and to me it’s been about advancing the science, advancing the knowledge gain advancing the benefits for Space Station and if I’m lucky I get to sit around a lot longer to say the same thing about going back to the moon and helping more people go to low Earth orbit so I’m just honored to be a part of it.
I’m same as her I started with NASA in 2001, on, on the business side and you know kind of bringing light to young men and women that the business side of space is exciting. As astronauts and engineers need right hands to get them everything that they need to do the things they do in a timely manner and do it correctly, with you know our evaluations of proposals and whatnot and I’m, I’m just glad that I can say to my grandkids later in life, like hey, I did the contracts and negotiated all the lights that we do like an astronaut’s helmet, and made sure that they could withstand certain freezing temperatures and checked everything to make sure the contracts were right, so, you know there are business sides of space that are really illuminating and fun, and hopefully we can continue generations wanting to be involved in it because yes, government space was all we had back in 2001 and now it’s a commercial entity for other people to join and just happy to be part of this great space family on stage.
Alexandria Baca 1:10:51
Yeah, so I know throughout this I haven’t mentioned my, my expertise level but usually when I mentioned this, people are like, I’m so I actually just graduated high school last year I’m 19 years old, like I said I’m a freshman and I’m in college and I think when I mentioned that a lot of people kind of doubt the fact that like there’s no way that you have this level of experience at that point in your life. And I think that’s something that’s very different that we see and that’s something that’s very unique that I could bring to the table for other individuals who may be at the same age or same level expertise as I. And so I just really hope that throughout my course of life that I can really emphasize a highlight that you do not have to be a certain age you do not have to come from a certain background because I certainly do not represent the typical person you would imagine in this field I mean even in currently in my current teens I’m, by far the youngest individual and I’m also the only woman in my current team as well. And so this really driving on point that you’re never too young chase your dreams if you have that drooping Ashran or if you just have the dream of doing some, some level job in this industry that you can do it there’s no standard that you have to be, you don’t have to have that Master’s or PhD already to get into the field sometimes all it takes is someone who represents you sometimes all it takes is someone reaching out to you and saying, Hey, this is possible, so I just really hope that throughout my course of life that continue to be that for my generation and hopefully lead them into space because my generation will most definitely bring us forward into space exploration.
Laurie Segall 1:12:10
I just wanna say you guys are also so super inspiring. I’ve spent the last, you know, couple months, in the midst of reporting on things like Q anon and all sorts of malicious stuff so like this is like the most uplifting conversation I’ve had in so long. So I’d like to personally thank you. And I know we’re talking a little bit about, you know, life beyond, beyond Earth and I think there’s actually a room happening right now called searching for life beyond Earth called an untoasted by way the future so if folks want to continue listening. After after this they can head over to that room. And, and everybody you guys thank you so much for joining today this has really been so inspiring. Again we’re Dot Dot Dot Media we do this every Tuesday at 6pm, Eastern Time, and we have wonderful panelists who join us from Europe, sometimes very late so thank you so much, Yvette, and next week we have going back to Q anon of course, we’re talking about cults and we’re it’s called deprogrammed cults are in our midst. And are they the new public health crisis and we’re gonna have some really fascinating people weighing in there so you can, you know, if you want to see more about us at dotdotdotmedia.com And you can also pre order this is a shameless plug, but it’s all about tech and humanity and society but you can also pre order my book which is coming out in 22 It’s called Special Characters my adventures with tech Titans and misfits, again, to the panelists, thank you. I just want to if you ever all go grab drinks somewhere I just want to be a fly on the wall, that is all I have. You just let me know you don’t have to include me but I will just be at the end of the bar listening to you guys geeking out over space and I just will love every second of it. So thank you so much for joining, and let’s do this again sometime soon.